I think I found what I was looking for and now understand how this is working. Or more importantly, how it's NOT working as I previously thought. ITD skills will very likely be removed over the next days. I might leave one or two in for some jobs but they will be on longish cooldowns if I do, and that's a big might, not will.

All ITD at the moment are ignoring 100% defense which explains the really high damage and buggy damage figure display when it goes over a certain number. Poor Iris never expected to see such high damage. I already increased the damage display to 5 figures from 4 back when we started almost, so imagine now when she sees more

I agree that there shouldn't be skills that simply destroy a tank, however their current attack value is too high for them to be simply indestructible, so you'd be fighting against someone who damages you while you cant even touch them. Still, i do agree on their removal simply because tanks are supposed to be hard to kill.

However, don't forget about the other form of defense: evasion. If ITD's go, 100% hit skills should go with the same logic. Remember mail classes usually have extremely low defense so each hit we take is a real pain. Raising the Eva-Hit cap a slight bit wouldn't hurt a lot either I believe, but it's all about testing how it works.

After lots of testing last night and some sleep and time to think, I am not going to remove ITD at this stage. I am going to change all the Percentage based ITD skills to a fixed amount first and see how that plays out. The bugged damage is most certainly caused by that combination. I was actually able to make some of these ITD skills (as they are now) reach figures that could not even be displayed properly, so more than 5 figures.

Once this is done, I will test more and take feedback as always.

I am also going to change some of the Wizard/Sorcerer AoE skills back to how they were intended, damage every 2s not 1s, it's just too much with an ITD. Those skills are meant to be strong but at the moment it's way too much, especially if they have further affects added like stuns.

Is this going to be a permanent thing or just until you fix the the problem? I ask from a pvp perspective.

It's not so much the high defense jobs I'm worried about, it's the others with less HP that are getting destroyed in 2 hits by all the ITD skills.

I'm going to sit down tomorrow and rework all the skills, replacing ITDs and percentage bonus damage and adjusting defenses too.

Not sure I get your point about evasion or how it relates to this really but I don't actually like guaranteed hit skills. I am of the opinion that if you want to guarantee your hits you should specialise in gear and cards with hit on them. I don't think we actually have that many skills with extra chance to hit right now but I will certainly check whilst I'm changing the skills.

It would be permanent I guess, or until I get the skills needed to rewrite some of the code. To be honest, I never cared much for ITD anyway and I'm just sorry I added so many new ones in the 3rd jobs. At the time I believed it was only the debuff-type ITD that was doing 100% and even when I tested I thought it was working fine, but it's not at all.

yes it will be a problem , and , itd is only on melee classes so it doesnt matter if they kill each other , the problem is , the magical users will be more powerful

and the Wind walker will be so nerfed , i mean , ITD was the thing making they STRONG what u said in a last post , so make sure to balance good the classes if youre going to quit ITD

how about trying to increase HP buff given by lvl 85 armors?

Yeah try to kill a healer without ITD when my hit is like 3k and they heal more than 15k. And on tankers it will be 1k or less.

so ITD very important. wonder why GM sedy not giving us those ITD buff for our class. so we can kill those healer and tank.

coz u have DOT my god.. like crusaders they dont have much itd but they got serious bleeding..!

lol Bias bish ... Thats wat i wanna correct hahah

Not just Warlocks Ray, Mercenary/Zerker/Glad/Advent had the ITDs before on retail and it never caused a problem. I totally agree with the removal of all new ITDs and having those skills adjusted to compensate so actual attack/damage values apply, it should only take some tweaking of the defence values and absorption values to start noticing a difference.

That makes a good point, the abs mechanic is one that I noticed counters ITDs quite nicely, could a slight change in present/future abs stats perhaps be a viable counter to ITDs? I noticed that WLs wind fort skill at max rank of 40% reduced my 24k damage to like 800 damage (pre 3rd job and post 3rd job).

No Soul Blader love Fist =(

Joking aside, I agree almost entirely with your post. On the part about inescapable OHKO why not just remove that combo entirely? Change the skills so that either the amount of time to execute the combo is drastically reduced or that there is no form of hard CC used to start it (perhaps even lower some of the CC efficiency so that a potion can dispel the debuff?).

(Talking 1v1 here.)
By "inescapable combos" I mean something a bit different from what you thought: they are MEANT to be near-inescapable, however it is possible to live through it if you take defensive measures about it (Promise? ) or simply interrupt it.
A prime example is Vanquisher's Impale>Overpower>rapid skill spam. It IS intended to be this way - it is barely escapable (afaik, Impale cannot be dispelled), but you can (and should try to) survive using any of the vast defensive capabilities - either use your job's defensive skill (all classes have that kind of skills: Templars' Divine Intervention, Windwalkers' Beastial Instincts, Sorcerers' Wind Fortification, Assassins' Protection Aura, Prophet's Sanctioned Grace, etc. etc.), an absorption/healing pot or a transform (Nirenia), OR interrupt the attacker (some classes do not have means to do that, however) - Serpent Sting, Enchanted Shock, SB: Omen/Abyss, Shield Slam... w/e else that has a hard CC in it.
(Some combos, though, are literally inescapable - Wizards, anyone?)
The problem is NOT with the combos; their damage initially wasn't usually enough to instantly KO the target and left it a window of opportunity to retaliate...but now that the damage has skyrocketed, they do not even leave any chance to survive, let alone counterattack. From what I've seen, right now the situation is that those same Vanqs/Wizards/Sorcs utterly destroy their target in a very short time span; caught unprepared (which's usually the case), victims' chances are abysmal.

TL;DR - it's not the combos, it's the imba damage

If you're implying Sorcs being imba, I reluctantly agree they are, but keep in mind they are tailor-made top counter melee classes.
Actually, if I'm to suggest how to nerf Sorcs someday, I'd go with the range first. Greater risk = greater chance of getting counterattacked; the high damage is somewhat intended.
(inb4 Sorcerers read to this point: ROUND 1. FIGHT)

more than 10k damage haha, I can't even moer than 5k.

Vanquishers aren't the only class that die quite rapidly, don't be so narrow minded. The current ITD issue affects EVERY player and EVERY class, not just you and not just Vanquisher.

I know? Thats why remove every 3rd job and even dont give me back itd destruction. Give me even only 1k base dmg just remove that 3rd job.

I know what you meant I wasn't clearer in my reply to you and I apologise for that.

Promise is physical only so no dice for us against Sorcs/Wizs, it'd be nice to have a magical reflect on there as well. Actually, I'm yet to meet a Wiz in PvP yet but as SB my skill set is such that Wizards shouldn't present a problem as I studied their 85 skill set and combo potential. Vanqs are the same, SB shits all over Vanqs.

Sorcs are the ones that fuck me up tbh dude, once my 100% abs pot goes on CD I can survive the first wave of Pyro > E Blast > Armageddon and if I manage to get close enough to try and silence to stop the combo reset then I get blasted away with pushes and whacked with the combo, if I'm quick enough or not under hard CC then I can nirenia. IF I manage to outlive that then I am now a victim to EoS because the full radius of the AoE doesn't show on the floor and if I get close enough to the Sorc to attack then I'll more than likely be in the AoE which they have casted under their feet while they stand there with 40% abs shield and spamming dots waiting to proc E Blast =).

Thats why Wizs are reclassing atm lol And I started going to BF on my Sorc, funny shit lol

Yea I know they're made to counter melee users perfectly but what seems to be happening now is what happened before with Zerks. To be honest before the new ITDs came in for Sorcs I already found WLs to be a nice counter to the Zerks that were runnin around in a group situation such as BF (YES thats right folks, GROUP PvP!!!!).

I agree with your range suggestion, means they get 2 30 secs of almost total invulnerability (2 uses of wind fort in succession) then they're pretty much normal for 1min bursts which would allow Melee users to get in close and actually deal damage. I don't like wind fort though and atm with the range Sorcs have and the tools at their disposal, wind fort is just too strong, a replacement would be something akin to Wizards shield, allows for a more tactical use of spells instead of a 'trolololol' style of play. The class also doesn't just counter melees, it counters EVERYONE with the current skills in use.

I'm digressing though, this isn't a thread on bashing sorcs and I don't intend on making it as such, it just so happens they are rapidly becoming the new Zerker and long time players who have stuck to WL are enjoying the new power, I don't blame them for wanting to hold onto it and I can see the justification in enjoying such a position.

Why? What will that actually solve?

Just hp only wont solve the problem, cuz even if you get like 130k hp or a bit more you are still gonna be 3-4 hit by 40k dealers and that can be done in matter of seconds 2-3 and ye its that fast that you can get it.

Well pretty much everything dies in a matter of seconds 1-3sec and boom you are dead... I stopped even buffing myself just no point, I cant touch anything long range or even try to do anything~

You can be even naked and nothing changed lol

haha so true, might even set a new record for a mili second death

yep , maybe will be a good option to quit ITDs , increasing hp , but we will need more defense on the classes that lacks def , like mail users , there are 35k -40k dmg dealers , so , it will be needed more def ...

@Sedy , what emolga says is = mail users low def , so , increasing HP , and removing ITD implicates lowering the chances of mail users to deal a good dmg ,and with low def they will be more easier to kill , increasing HP in mail users dont work so much if they have very low defense

instead of removing ITD's why not give us a buffs that (reduce base dmg for 30-40% and 20-30% more Hp?) and it stay forever.

i posted about this on other thread but since u made this i resay it.

as for my opinion it should stay for us vanquiser... thats why we are here... to deal massive dmge in a single blow.

seems logic , i agree your point , really good

I love the idea of this Sedy, it will require A LOT of work though as I'm sure you are aware. There's a great deal of skills that not only increase damage to ungodly amounts but also reduce damage to nothing not to mention heals for 15k +, then there are pots with % based heals etc etc. I already mentioned in the Myrmidon thread that if you were to make a test server to see how this plays out then we'll all gladly help.

Before you remove the ITDs though, could I make another suggestion? Instead of removing the ITDs from the game, remove % based bonus damage from the skills which have an ITD associated with them and test with a fixed amount of bonus damage as I think this is one of the biggest problems encountered atm and is one of the largest factors in the ungodly damage being dealt.

Another method could perhaps be to lower weapon damage values to reduce overall base damage which should prevent both of the ITD bugs from rearing it's head. I've noticed that once damage gets to around 63k thats when it starts to rear it's head (PvE experience) and so far in PvP I haven't been able to hit for higher than 33k on an ITD yet.

The above 2 suggestions would save a lot of time and work and would more than likely solve both issues encountered so far.

the problem isnt the tank def...the problem is they are powerful now on days

I love the idea of this Sedy, it will require A LOT of work though as I'm sure you are aware. There's a great deal of skills that not only increase damage to ungodly amounts but also reduce damage to nothing not to mention heals for 15k +, then there are pots with % based heals etc etc. I already mentioned in the Myrmidon thread that if you were to make a test server to see how this plays out then we'll all gladly help.

Before you remove the ITDs though, could I make another suggestion? Instead of removing the ITDs from the game, remove % based bonus damage from the skills which have an ITD associated with them and test with a fixed amount of bonus damage as I think this is one of the biggest problems encountered atm and is one of the largest factors in the ungodly damage being dealt.

Another method could perhaps be to lower weapon damage values to reduce overall base damage which should prevent both of the ITD bugs from rearing it's head. I've noticed that once damage gets to around 63k thats when it starts to rear it's head (PvE experience) and so far in PvP I haven't been able to hit for higher than 33k on an ITD yet.

The above 2 suggestions would save a lot of time and work and would more than likely solve both issues encountered so far.

Yeh it would be a lot of work but I think it would probably be worth it. From what people are telling me, things feel pretty broken at the moment when it comes to PvP.

Damage numbers are getting ridiculously high now and it's causing bugs to appear because of the way the game is coded. I guess they never intended for this game to be expanded because you can see it all the time in the code how things are setup.

I would like to go through and remove all the ITD from skills and replace it with increased bonus damage and probably replace all the percent bonus damage too.

I'm not TOO concerned with defenses of players because a lot of jobs have -defense debuffs now and they can always be adjusted, same goes for the buffs that the defense jobs have. And anyway, these jobs SHOULD be hard to kill. I know they have some more damage now with the 3rd jobs, but that would get reduced with the loss of ITD.

is like "oh good im a good dmg dealer and good at having hp and high def , i can kill all of them slower by healing myself "

Oh forgot to add. In my tests, it doesn't always matter how much ITD a skill has, it could be only 10% and another 100% and they both do the same damage lol.

the point is , they survive and they kill good

Removal of ITD would mean that tanks and healers will hardly be killed. Then again, I really dislike the idea of itd where you can just burst damage and 2 shot people. I hope for a more balanced gameplay.

Perhaps considering a direct (not buff please because it will be unfair to certain classes) - all damage absorption buff to replace itd, since it will not be as overpowering as itd and achieve sort of the same effect of course, the damage inflicted will be reduced.

I like the idea of - heal received. Almost all classes have them and it is a great way to counter healer with these skills however, healers can just ailment pot/ debuff those debuff away so maybe you might want to look into this.

Removing nimble tongue card so that healers can no longer achieve instant, to nerf them, but this is a very PvP perspective since they still need their heals in dungeons. Just my thoughts

Side note:
"Removal of ITD would mean that tanks and healers will hardly be killed. Then again, I really dislike the idea of itd where you can just burst damage and 2 shot people. I hope for a more balanced gameplay."
For me that's the main purpose... I don't think healers and tanks should be easily killed, like 2-3 shots, on the same way I don't think healers and tanks should be able to kill people...

Anyways, regarding the removal of ITD, I agree. Even though it doesnt affect me directly as i can heal myself almost enough to cover some of the ITD skills, I agree with its removal because if feels almost illogical. Like, whats the point of having 40k or 70k defense if with 1 single skill i will be as good as naked?

I think the ITD can be removed and replaced with spikes from critical hits, and get the resistance stat actually working, to be able to dodge/resist critical hits...

I don't think we need to keep this discussion open now, it seems the last update fixed the high damage issue for most players, or at least that's how it seems since I'm not getting reports anymore

ITD will not be removed at this point.

I don't suppose you're hiring any help for testing

How about giving all classes 120k HP and same amount of base dmg like 2h weapon? )

and i want 20% more base dmg like destruction and stun as well? ofc same cd as zerk has.

what about lets all have same buffs? sounds fair, right?

I'm bored of you two. If you really don't see how op is sorc atm no comment. 120k hp? Yeah can't you get it with stamina 15% in head, 10% bf winner buff, 20% hp lead buff in BF, 4 bf acces and shield? Because those I need to got that 120k hp. And idk why u talking about hp coz skills gives me none hp and we are talking about skills not items.

@chickencurry Crusaders DoT isn't that high...I think 3rd class specialization we get a skill that does 20% hp in 4 secs...ok...20% over 4 secs...then a 3m cooldown....with in that 3mins healers/tanks can heal themselves to full hp...we have 2 20% over 4 sec DoT skills. thats 8 secs with 40% hp then we have to wait 3 mins to reuse them...meaning that it is completly useless since our Stuns/Immo/Para only lasts a maximum of 4 secs aswell...w/ no ITD we'd be doing 4k-6k dmg...and that is Donor Damage...my atk rate is roughly 1 atk per second...thats 16k dmg in 4 seconds...on an 80k hp healer (ex. Happiny) that is only 40%+16k hp before she is able to reheal herself to full hp...which happens in about....oh lets say....10 secs...without my ONE ITD skill, I do 40%+16k hp damage...to a healer that heals 15k hp a heal...and healers have more than 4 skills that heal....so no..our DoT does SHIT in PvP....

Prophets having it fits well with the class role, no need for them to be mentioned.

I don't agree any other class except for healers and tanks having a damage abs buff, why should a damage dealer class have access to a skill that promotes reckless game-play? If a class is going to have a shield it should have a fixed number of hits and/or a certain amount of damage it can absorb (a la Wizards?). Not sure on mail classes, haven't had an overly great deal of time to experiment and test.

I also don't agree that Sorcerers should have stuns (even if the proc chance is low and attached to an AoE), they have a sleep skill now and that should be sufficient when combined with 40% damage abs and their push arsenal, 90% land chance with a 20s CD is pretty goddamn nice. The Sorcerer class has been pushed TOO high in terms of the 3rd job skill set, it's combined several classes best aspects and thrown them into what was already a nice mix. The removal of the % bonus damage should sort out the current issues with that class though.

You wanna talk about skills? Look at how many ITD added in here for all classes compare to retail. WF has been our original skill and got nerf it. Not some random skill got change or added =/ Why are you QQ-ing about original skill LOL

Destruction was our original skill and it doesnt give itd anymore and?

I agree with the removal of the ITD but... knight its gonna be OP

People complained about destruction and chilled, look what got removed and they were both retail originals.

NO no no... I'm just starting to like Vanquisher. What would us be without our signature ITDs.... QQ

Destruction is original skill but it was bugged, right? and now changed to 20% Atk.
wind fort is original skill but nerfed from 30s to 20s, right?
it still doesnt make it fair?

And now we got 20/30% attack while you got much better 40% abs. Even destruction 15s, WF 20s nice.

lol and? isnt it all bugged to 100%? does WF bug to 100% abs?

this will be more exciting.

for the mean time, pls spawn mini boss at their exact time. Ive been searching them this whole day. I just saw a strawberry boss. Poor me. (delete this post after reading it)

hehe. Thank you.

Is destruction bugged to 100% attack? since when?

I think if you take the skills ignore defense both physically and magically, you lose the essence of the old iris.
In my opinion the only end up playing worse, thus leading to bankruptcy.
I think what makes success is difficult to achieve high damage and the quest to reach new levels.
Let the difficulties that we have today and learn to play with them, from what I've seen so far the game has improved a lot, more have lost many players, maybe it's time to stop the changes.

Dracke.

It wasn't bugged on retail, the plethora of stuff here has elevated peoples damage to much higher numbers than Eya originally intended. It wasn't easy to see this coming so Sedy obviously didn't have time to properly test and adjust things accordingly. Also didn't help all the people whining about quitting if the 3rd job wasn't launched asap.

whinning and QQ online.net?

wadi suki meant itd not the atk lol.

time to make a templar -17k pdef with high abs and def

destruction bug to deal 100% ITD not 100% attack add lol.

yeah whinning and QQ maybe its funny when you said it first time, but keep saying it now is really bored but if u feel better ok whatever im QQing.

its not itd anymore so? and WF is still abs maybe change it to 40% def since we got 20% attack?

And now all ITDs are 'bugging' to 100% based on each individual character and their respective damage, now ALL classes can enjoy the same shit that got thrown at Zerks/Glads with Destruction and Mercs with Chilled! woot woot!

Its hard Ex. they are all used to be not giving up on anything but still having high dmg/HP/hit chance, now they have to give up on either 1 of them lol.

yes yes yes remove those ITD. we sniper never rely on those skills. and we can still kill some class. just alot of work.

20% def weeeeee ... shitty def + 20% def yay for your brilliant idea ahaha

as I cannot resist joining shitstorms, I'm throwing my 2 cents in:
I explained in detail why Sorcs should not have Wind Fort several times, but it seems either Sedy doesn't [want to] give a damn about it, or I was getting silenced by immediate collective whin*cough*counter-arguments.
I do not really care enough as to type out the shit all over again, so I'll just stick with what Wadi said - no DPS class should have any skills allowing and promoting reckless gameplay.
[I'd just like to point out that it does apply to Destruction, as well. It shouldn't make a return either.]

EDIT: looking over the new comments that got posted while I was typing...proves once more that if Sorcs still cannot give exact proof that Wind Fort isn't imba and shouldn't be nerfed (preferring to troll instead)...ringin' any bells, Sedy?
I'm really tired of this shit and I'm out.
*off to sleep

my bad again ... shitty def + 40% def weeeeee ... It increase def base u know that? not total def

Isn't 20% dmg in destruction shitty if you compare it to itd? It is . Anyway whatever in your opinion sorc is weak coz u playing sorc. I'm gonna wait a bit if pvp will be still fast and boring like that I will just quit. k whinning QQer done. Ty

ikr its hard to bad i give up on my damage and also my reflect.... but guess what i still owned those bishes complaining about my Soulblader Class. your class is next you will be nerfed!!! lets quit together ahahaha.

==a, i enjoy this games again since 3rd job show up. if change so many thing, it will make more confuse. Just my oppinion, i think more HP will make more longer time in pvp battle.
About dungeon, why not make lisk like the old iris again, we can raid party, but lisk become more harder ever. maybe like lisk insane for future. I think more ppl in dungeon should be more fun, better then just 6ppl. Just my oppinion ^^

its boring and fast cuz youre one of those ppl who died now? i heard u used to be OP b4 3rd job, now that u r not it is boring to u?

If the ITD is going then there is no need to remove % bonus damage, don't give yourself the extra work where that's concerned. The major reason why ITD is important at the moment is actually due to HP values, those who have invested physical money or a great deal of time farming for moolah to buy the relevant accessories have greatly increased damage/hp/def etc which is where 'OP' classes and all that jazz come from. If someone is sittin with IV/V/VI cards for just stam/intel or w/e is obviously going to have much lower of the aforementioned stats hence them getting destroyed in 1 or 2 hits.

If you went to a BF before the 3rd job update you would see what I mean and I am sure you have went before and know what I mean. People who invested time and money in their gear dominated those who did not, before I spent money on my char I got 2 shot in DMs, once I invested £££ in my char that no longer happened and that is pretty much what it comes down to, also the use of trans cards and pots etc

The previous issues that were present only really applied to the Zerker and that was the class people complained about hence it's surge in popularity but even then only the donator Zerks could go around 2 shotting people and that was not everbody, only those who could not pvp or those who did not invest the same amount of £££ or time cold truly roflstomp. Mercenary class was strong but only a handful of us existed, Advents started creeping in popularity after their buffs, same applies to WLs, Magicians stayed roughly around the same in terms of how often they were played.

The biggest mistakes in the introduction of the 3rd update, in my opinion, are as follows;

The introduction of the imbued recipes and then the weapons they created further pushing the damage values higher than they were already causing both bugs to appear

The inclusion of other classes having ITDs, Wizards should not have one, the Sorcs ITD should have remained at 1 (Explosive Blast 2), Tanks ITD should have been removed as they are just that, Tanks, not damage dealers

% Bonus damage should not have been placed on ITD skills as it creates problems when players damage gets too high, having % bonus on non ITD skills is fine though and is a logical progression plus a nice attempt at working round the necessity of 3 classes having an ITD buff intrinsic to their way of playing. If you wanted to add some bonus damage then a low-mid fixed amount wouldn't cause any problems.

The above are not your fault though as you were pressured by people in the community who just whined about '3rd jobs not being here, I'm going to quit' and all that shite, that caused the problems Sedy, not you.

The only real problem people complained about before was the Berzerkers destruction and even then that was only an issue with certain people due to their high base damage values. I can guarantee you that some of those who complained about being stomped by the likes of a Zerker or Merc were the ones who did not compare gear wise and also used this to their own advantage when killing those who were poorly geared in comparison to them, but they did not complain then =). Funny thing is that the Glad has/had a similar skillset to the Zerker minus the CD reset and I only ever saw a handful of people as a glad in BFs and only 1 who could kill people but that was because he had thrown $$$ into his character and could stomp almost everybody.

BFs before the update actually had 3 or 4 people per team minimum during my nighttime, usually it was higher, now there are 4 people in an 85 DM/FM/BoA TOTAL, if we're fortunate enough to even have the BF load as people just don't go anymore. I think that speaks volumes as to the state of the game then and now. There are so many things in the game at the moment that cause characters (NOT classes) to be considered 'OP' and when the ITD is removed you will still have the same cries but from different people.

Make yourself 1 of each of the popular classes that are being played currently, gear it to a level that is feasibly possible in the game or simply examine those who are considered well geared and replicate their setup, take those characters to a lvl 85 DM, do a bit of pvp and test for yourself to understand better how things are working at the moment, better to get first hand experience than folks reporting to you their own biased opinion.

Edit: I still say ITD should be removed by the way, I'm just throwing caution to the wind for any further changes to the state of the game.

It is boring when I'm dead in one moment and don't have even time to do anything. I can die it's ok but after longer fight not a few secs. If I wanna fast pvp I should play another game but I'm playing here why? Because pvp wasn't like that earlier then suddenly changed. I don't wanna win, I wanna fun but I don't see fun in that pvp.

Yes it wud a nice idea to remove itd.. but but.. if the itd is gone who can kill them healers.. them templars.. a properly equip vanquisher cant even do more than 10k of damage and healers heals like more than 10k of hp..

so now you are saying 20% Base dmg mean nothing? and 40% def is something?

its ok to remove ITD but also... decrease the defense of all... because for what i notice.... even with ITD its so hard to kill a high defense char like templar.. how much more if no ITD how can we kill a high def templar

Now I'm saying that I'm done because discussion with you has no sense. So please just stop reply this post because srsly it going to nowhere.

You folks don't get it, tanks are NOT supposed to die, you aren't supposed to be able to kill a tank in 5 or 6 secs then move on. Please drop the 'we can't kill a templar' shite and actually focus on the long term repercussions of the changes to the game if ITD is removed/kept in or w/e. The same applies to healers, they aren't supposed to be unkillable but they aren't supposed to drop in 2 hits either.

The one thing people need to remember is that the ITD punishes those who decide to play by just stacking defense, I'm guessing that was it's actual purpose as I can't find a logical reason for the inclusion of such a mechanic, unfortunately the Eya devs didn't have any foresight so fucked things up for the future and has brought us to the impasse we currently are at.

Btw Sedy, how does all this affect the damage absorption mechanic? Certainly this also plays a part in ITD/def and the future changes you wish to implement? Personally I hate the damage absorption mechanic as much as the ITD mechanic and I would like to see it removed along with ITD, just messes things up.

yep its going no where since you only QQ instead of playing your class more to learn =/. Dying easily? 4sec? u have 4 damn sec to press you abs pot and still cant press it?

Okay. I'm going to take some time off work to actually state my own opinion. Other can hate on me if I speak biased for some reason, but yeah.

Here we go.

ITD, originally, was never designed to be "Ignore TOTAL Defense". It should have never been 100% in the first place. Sedy already pointed that out that it is bugged, we -- are now leaving people to tear up like paper in 2-3 hits. And not just any person -- every kind of player.

Citadel has mentioned this in his post. There is a difference between Donators and Non-Donators. As much as people want to WHINE and GRIPE about having less gears/cards/wings than others, that's how a game is. People with $$$ will get better gears than those who dont. Why do you expect to be at the same level as them when they spent real money? Comprende?

Therefore.

The ITDs and other debuffing skills and such tip the scale. But Donators have an advantage, they have more HP without losing Attack. Ergo, balance in their build compared to those who are in Int + Stam.

In conclusion to that.

Just cause you want to balance the game, does not mean you should make everything "equal". There should still be a distinction between people who spent, who farmed, who saved up vs ones that just play willy-nilly.

How else would NS make money from it, right? LOL

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Now in my opinion, I do see a favor in the decreasing the amount of ITD-ing skills we have at the present AND INSTEAD -- giving the said skills boosted dmg output. Ergo, you only deal with damage, retail the target's def.

Just because by the mere fact that we experience bugs about these skills.

In fact, if I recall, the only STABLE class WITH an ITD was Warlock (not Sorcerer). The old client designed Warlocks to have one 75% def ignore with a needed invoked skill upon the target (Explosive Blast). And that never changed at all.

Everything that was newly designed? Are all buggy and throwing wonky numbers.

Correct me if I am wrong though.

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My point:

I personally like having ITDs in the game. But too much, is too much. =)

Oh yeah, I wish that I have 4secs. Okay no more posts on this forum. Not with ppl like here. Can't even say my opinion coz someone will call me stupid another one will call me whinning QQer. If you can't talk wuthout insulting ppl just stop talking. Learn how to play my class? I can kill in those 4 secs as well and I'm not saying that Vanquisher is weak and I was never saying just pvp with that dmg has no fun for me. So please just read what I say before answer anyway ok done gonna sleep.

Although not really unexpected, I still have...mixed feelings for this matter. As it seems we're talking PvP here...

On the positive side: first and foremost, PvP mechanics will surely shift, as removal of ITD means no more OHKOs or unescapable combos that result in the same, really. (Take Vanq/Sorc, for example.) This is obviously good and will finally make PvP combat, whether 1v1 or mass, more interesting, long-lasting and...tactical, if you like. This is a significant improvement.
Second, this will give a reason to build Defense (not just stack Damage Abs.), allowing more gear flexibility (= good); far as I've seen, it's largely ignored right now. (pun intended)
(PvE-wise, reduced burst damage will prolong pack/boss fights as well, raising their difficulty.)

On the negative side: foremost, it immediately comes to mind that you are going to revamp Vanquisher [and, possibly, Windwalker] class should you remove ITD - those classes heavily rely on it. (Not because they can't fight w/o them, just because ITD was the core of their mechanics.) I, for one, don't really see any substitutes for this mechanic except probably something involving Crit...but I guess it's no longer my concern.
Second, speaking of Crit: as with ITD removed, it will be the only thing multiplying attack damage, it must as well be entirely rebalanced to provide effective counters (Protection) for it, as it is at the moment heavily underestimated (and rightfully so, as usually a person's Crit chance exceeds the likely target's Protection too far to somehow counter it).
Third, as many have mentioned before me, it will be substantially harder to kill tanks and/or healers. I know they indeed shouldn't be killed in 5-7 hits, but with the durability they currently have they will just wear the target down (1v1) or request focus fire on it (mass); they shouldn't be nigh-invincible, either. While there are specific classes that counter them (say, Crusader, whose bleed damage cuts through Templars' shields, Champions' reflects and Priests'/Prophets' heals.), there should be at least some general mechanic through which other classes can damage them. ITD executed precisely that function.
[to avoid tanks/healers raging on me: I did not say "mechanic to allow other classes to easily kill them", I implied "something that counters high defenses and/or healing" - this isn't the same thing. Remember, everything has a counter.]

Overall, my stance is neutral, leaning more toward keeping ITD.
I personally think it's better to invest your time and effort to try to fix the bugs with it, rather than just removing it altogether (if it's actually possible to fix them, that is.). It's too great/versatile a mechanic to just drop it.
My 42 cents.

Totally agree with your point jose and I strongly dislike how 'tanks' are at the moment.

our dot? -2000 5sec 10k only. chance to miss. the rest of the the dot? nvm. you wont even notice it. with all those high hp class.

Who said your supposed to be able to kill a healer on your own? This isn't a 1v1 game, it's an MMO. Work as a team if you want to kill the healer, or use your skills on it solo to distract it and stop it from healing it's allies. If you are up against a healer on your own then you best be ready to spend some time on it whilst it's mana is depleted.

Not sure I understand you but I think your saying Lisk should be harder?? Well remember it's level 75 so it's even easier now but it was still easy due to inflated damage and defenses of players. It actually does massive damage but there are so many ways to mitigate it with skills/transforms/pots etc. However, I still see the odd party wiping on it :P

Level 85 Lisk will return later on, probably with some friends.

I nominate vulcansuki for president )

Just remove 3rd job. I prefer playing a zerk without itd destruction which can't kill anyone than be dead in 1 second with 120k hp.

@James Our highest DoT skill does -600 every 2 secs for 10 secs I believe. So -3.6k HP in 10 secs...thats set DoT damage.

@Sedy Crusaders are Healer controlers, we can nerf healers heal by 70% on themselves or another player. Then all our cast time increase, and what not...its hard for crusaders not to be better at mage/healer control than most classes. I think its our JOB to take out healers. Or just make them useless in Massive PvP...but killing a healer on our own is easy if you can land a Vampric Curse, -70% heal recieved, with +18% lifesteal, and some -30% I'm forgetting...along w/ that and our multitudes of DoT+Stuns, and our new 85 reset we can control healers w/ some effeciancy...and even an occasional warlock/sage that can't push us fast enough. (In Massive PvP whos gonna focus a mesly crusader if we have a tank)? So in my opinion ITDs are OP, if you can mix it w/ classes/your own skill set.

Take Coup De Grace for example, 30% ITD + 25% bonus damage I believe, on top of my 15k dmg (donor).... easily do 24k + at 78. Mix that w/ stun, dot, heal nerf, and more stun, plus my reset, I can easily take out a tank...in theory anyway. xD

If you wanna longer pvp, give every class 40% abs buff like sorcerers or prophets got. Idky why shouldnt we got abs buff as well since sorc got nice itd like merc or zerk before and stuns like magi before, and they got sleep also.

Yes i mean new level for lisk maybe LISK INSANE. have huge HP on that lisk, so ppl need raid to finish it in time. hehe ^^

EVEN YOU REMOVE ITD OR NOT ~ NOOB PLAYER WILL BE A NOOB PLAYER ~ PRO PLAYER WILL BE PRO WHAT EVER IT TAKES... and theres always a QQ.... Let the people adopt on each class first before doing something master sedy
-This issue won't solve anything theres always a QQ... especially for those people who can't move on because of this new 3rd Job.

What do you mean snipers don't use ITD? IIRC my snper has 2 ITDs, which hurt a lot in BF

Citadel, just saying, serkers have 4 itd skills (i know cuz my cousin [Hadis/Ermec] is a serker too..)

They have 4 itd:

Shockwave (AoE skill), Behead, Berserked Assault, AND Charge 2 . :3

Dracke D:


Where have u been dude?! LOL

Sure!remove our Wind fortification. but give us your duel skill. Which we cant move at all if we got hit by that.And as a sorc we are squishy and cant use any skill at all. D:

You mean like a permanent buff that is always on, or just in battlefields?

Somebody else suggested a buff in battlefields too but I don't really think it's the answer. We have field PK too and of course PvE which is just too easy now with all this damage. It's hard to make any new content that gives a challenge.

permanent buff.

At the moment, neutral. Requires further thought before voting

oh forgot to mention, you gotta do something with healing and tanker's def as well.

I'm not sure tank jobs would be that much of a problem with -defense debuffs that most jobs have now and more could be added in place of the removed ITD. Also a lot of jobs now have dots that don't care about high defenses.

Healers on the other hand are a problem and measures were already taken in this update to not buff them AS much as the DPS jobs, mostly on gear. They don't get as much as a boost as the rest on their weapons and armor and -cast was kept minimal, less than on 75 gear so if they want the -cast they have to sacrifice slots and use Nimble instead of All Stats. I would of course look at their skills too and make adjustments where needed.

Yea the damage numbers are starting to get pretty stupid in comparison to before, a combination of almost every class having an ITD with 20-50% bonus damage on a 20-100% ITD is makin things pretty fuckin horrible for some classes that don't have the skill set to combat ITDs. The only classes I've seen so far that can handle the amount of ITDs now are the Sages with Grace and Sorcs with Wind Fort and even then it's only delaying their inevitable death.

Have you experiment with how damage is calculated btw? It may not be a case of changing damage values/armour values which will cause more work overall, perhaps looking at how damage is calculated and then overhauling that particular mechanism to properly reflect how the damage should be showing, that way you can get rid of the pesky ITDs in a slightly easier way.

Adding a perma buff feels too much like a bandaid, I would rather fix it at the root

well that is up to you, for me, giving us that kind of permanent buffs is not too much effort

Natsu you should noticed that the healer's buffs that give heal its the same as at lvl 65... we havent had an increase of heal since lvl 65 except on the armor pieces. The new lvl 85 armor pieces, makes us loose -15% cast speed.... isnt that enough? O.o

The protection stats do work, it's just that crit is so high you need a lot of it to be effective.

I tested the ITDs a lot before the 3rd job patch came in and found the only class that showed this was the Berserker with the 3 instant ITDs they have (too lazy to check their names atm). Those 3 always matches up to the damage of destruction. Mercs 75% ITDs didn't work in this way.

Post 3rd job class I have been able to test 2 classes in depth, those being Soul Blader and Sorcerer. The Soul Bladers min-max damage on the ITDs actually function the way the tooltips state in terms of damage dealt, they haven't bugged out and achieve the correct amounts of damage based the 0.9 - 1.1 multiplier built into the game. How the game works out what value is taken between 0.9 and 1.1 and then used to multiply damage and heal is beyond me though, it seems to be totally random. Sorc pretty much follows suit with their ITD's for the 3rd job.

One thing puzzles me though and I have not yet figured this out, how in the fuck does the game allow an ITD skill to deal more damage on a char with full defence than a normal skill with bonus damage on a 0 defense target? I tested using SB: Omen on a target with 0 defence and dealt less damage than with my opponent at full defence using CTP.

One thing I did notice though is that the ITD SBs have on a fixed amount of bonus damage always deals pretty much the same amount of damage and only varies by a few hundred, I haven't noticed that result on the other ITDs with % bonus damage as the min-max can be a big difference.