I think I found what I was looking for and now understand how this is working. Or more importantly, how it's NOT working as I previously thought. ITD skills will very likely be removed over the next days. I might leave one or two in for some jobs but they will be on longish cooldowns if I do, and that's a big might, not will.

All ITD at the moment are ignoring 100% defense which explains the really high damage and buggy damage figure display when it goes over a certain number. Poor Iris never expected to see such high damage. I already increased the damage display to 5 figures from 4 back when we started almost, so imagine now when she sees more

I agree that there shouldn't be skills that simply destroy a tank, however their current attack value is too high for them to be simply indestructible, so you'd be fighting against someone who damages you while you cant even touch them. Still, i do agree on their removal simply because tanks are supposed to be hard to kill.

However, don't forget about the other form of defense: evasion. If ITD's go, 100% hit skills should go with the same logic. Remember mail classes usually have extremely low defense so each hit we take is a real pain. Raising the Eva-Hit cap a slight bit wouldn't hurt a lot either I believe, but it's all about testing how it works.

After lots of testing last night and some sleep and time to think, I am not going to remove ITD at this stage. I am going to change all the Percentage based ITD skills to a fixed amount first and see how that plays out. The bugged damage is most certainly caused by that combination. I was actually able to make some of these ITD skills (as they are now) reach figures that could not even be displayed properly, so more than 5 figures.

Once this is done, I will test more and take feedback as always.

I am also going to change some of the Wizard/Sorcerer AoE skills back to how they were intended, damage every 2s not 1s, it's just too much with an ITD. Those skills are meant to be strong but at the moment it's way too much, especially if they have further affects added like stuns.

Is this going to be a permanent thing or just until you fix the the problem? I ask from a pvp perspective.

It's not so much the high defense jobs I'm worried about, it's the others with less HP that are getting destroyed in 2 hits by all the ITD skills.

I'm going to sit down tomorrow and rework all the skills, replacing ITDs and percentage bonus damage and adjusting defenses too.

Not sure I get your point about evasion or how it relates to this really but I don't actually like guaranteed hit skills. I am of the opinion that if you want to guarantee your hits you should specialise in gear and cards with hit on them. I don't think we actually have that many skills with extra chance to hit right now but I will certainly check whilst I'm changing the skills.

It would be permanent I guess, or until I get the skills needed to rewrite some of the code. To be honest, I never cared much for ITD anyway and I'm just sorry I added so many new ones in the 3rd jobs. At the time I believed it was only the debuff-type ITD that was doing 100% and even when I tested I thought it was working fine, but it's not at all.

yes it will be a problem , and , itd is only on melee classes so it doesnt matter if they kill each other , the problem is , the magical users will be more powerful

and the Wind walker will be so nerfed , i mean , ITD was the thing making they STRONG what u said in a last post , so make sure to balance good the classes if youre going to quit ITD

how about trying to increase HP buff given by lvl 85 armors?

Yeah try to kill a healer without ITD when my hit is like 3k and they heal more than 15k. And on tankers it will be 1k or less.

so ITD very important. wonder why GM sedy not giving us those ITD buff for our class. so we can kill those healer and tank.

coz u have DOT my god.. like crusaders they dont have much itd but they got serious bleeding..!

lol Bias bish ... Thats wat i wanna correct hahah

Not just Warlocks Ray, Mercenary/Zerker/Glad/Advent had the ITDs before on retail and it never caused a problem. I totally agree with the removal of all new ITDs and having those skills adjusted to compensate so actual attack/damage values apply, it should only take some tweaking of the defence values and absorption values to start noticing a difference.

That makes a good point, the abs mechanic is one that I noticed counters ITDs quite nicely, could a slight change in present/future abs stats perhaps be a viable counter to ITDs? I noticed that WLs wind fort skill at max rank of 40% reduced my 24k damage to like 800 damage (pre 3rd job and post 3rd job).

No Soul Blader love Fist =(

Joking aside, I agree almost entirely with your post. On the part about inescapable OHKO why not just remove that combo entirely? Change the skills so that either the amount of time to execute the combo is drastically reduced or that there is no form of hard CC used to start it (perhaps even lower some of the CC efficiency so that a potion can dispel the debuff?).

(Talking 1v1 here.)
By "inescapable combos" I mean something a bit different from what you thought: they are MEANT to be near-inescapable, however it is possible to live through it if you take defensive measures about it (Promise? ) or simply interrupt it.
A prime example is Vanquisher's Impale>Overpower>rapid skill spam. It IS intended to be this way - it is barely escapable (afaik, Impale cannot be dispelled), but you can (and should try to) survive using any of the vast defensive capabilities - either use your job's defensive skill (all classes have that kind of skills: Templars' Divine Intervention, Windwalkers' Beastial Instincts, Sorcerers' Wind Fortification, Assassins' Protection Aura, Prophet's Sanctioned Grace, etc. etc.), an absorption/healing pot or a transform (Nirenia), OR interrupt the attacker (some classes do not have means to do that, however) - Serpent Sting, Enchanted Shock, SB: Omen/Abyss, Shield Slam... w/e else that has a hard CC in it.
(Some combos, though, are literally inescapable - Wizards, anyone?)
The problem is NOT with the combos; their damage initially wasn't usually enough to instantly KO the target and left it a window of opportunity to retaliate...but now that the damage has skyrocketed, they do not even leave any chance to survive, let alone counterattack. From what I've seen, right now the situation is that those same Vanqs/Wizards/Sorcs utterly destroy their target in a very short time span; caught unprepared (which's usually the case), victims' chances are abysmal.

TL;DR - it's not the combos, it's the imba damage

If you're implying Sorcs being imba, I reluctantly agree they are, but keep in mind they are tailor-made top counter melee classes.
Actually, if I'm to suggest how to nerf Sorcs someday, I'd go with the range first. Greater risk = greater chance of getting counterattacked; the high damage is somewhat intended.
(inb4 Sorcerers read to this point: ROUND 1. FIGHT)

more than 10k damage haha, I can't even moer than 5k.

Vanquishers aren't the only class that die quite rapidly, don't be so narrow minded. The current ITD issue affects EVERY player and EVERY class, not just you and not just Vanquisher.

I know? Thats why remove every 3rd job and even dont give me back itd destruction. Give me even only 1k base dmg just remove that 3rd job.

I know what you meant I wasn't clearer in my reply to you and I apologise for that.

Promise is physical only so no dice for us against Sorcs/Wizs, it'd be nice to have a magical reflect on there as well. Actually, I'm yet to meet a Wiz in PvP yet but as SB my skill set is such that Wizards shouldn't present a problem as I studied their 85 skill set and combo potential. Vanqs are the same, SB shits all over Vanqs.

Sorcs are the ones that fuck me up tbh dude, once my 100% abs pot goes on CD I can survive the first wave of Pyro > E Blast > Armageddon and if I manage to get close enough to try and silence to stop the combo reset then I get blasted away with pushes and whacked with the combo, if I'm quick enough or not under hard CC then I can nirenia. IF I manage to outlive that then I am now a victim to EoS because the full radius of the AoE doesn't show on the floor and if I get close enough to the Sorc to attack then I'll more than likely be in the AoE which they have casted under their feet while they stand there with 40% abs shield and spamming dots waiting to proc E Blast =).

Thats why Wizs are reclassing atm lol And I started going to BF on my Sorc, funny shit lol

Yea I know they're made to counter melee users perfectly but what seems to be happening now is what happened before with Zerks. To be honest before the new ITDs came in for Sorcs I already found WLs to be a nice counter to the Zerks that were runnin around in a group situation such as BF (YES thats right folks, GROUP PvP!!!!).

I agree with your range suggestion, means they get 2 30 secs of almost total invulnerability (2 uses of wind fort in succession) then they're pretty much normal for 1min bursts which would allow Melee users to get in close and actually deal damage. I don't like wind fort though and atm with the range Sorcs have and the tools at their disposal, wind fort is just too strong, a replacement would be something akin to Wizards shield, allows for a more tactical use of spells instead of a 'trolololol' style of play. The class also doesn't just counter melees, it counters EVERYONE with the current skills in use.

I'm digressing though, this isn't a thread on bashing sorcs and I don't intend on making it as such, it just so happens they are rapidly becoming the new Zerker and long time players who have stuck to WL are enjoying the new power, I don't blame them for wanting to hold onto it and I can see the justification in enjoying such a position.

Why? What will that actually solve?

Just hp only wont solve the problem, cuz even if you get like 130k hp or a bit more you are still gonna be 3-4 hit by 40k dealers and that can be done in matter of seconds 2-3 and ye its that fast that you can get it.

Well pretty much everything dies in a matter of seconds 1-3sec and boom you are dead... I stopped even buffing myself just no point, I cant touch anything long range or even try to do anything~

You can be even naked and nothing changed lol

haha so true, might even set a new record for a mili second death

yep , maybe will be a good option to quit ITDs , increasing hp , but we will need more defense on the classes that lacks def , like mail users , there are 35k -40k dmg dealers , so , it will be needed more def ...

@Sedy , what emolga says is = mail users low def , so , increasing HP , and removing ITD implicates lowering the chances of mail users to deal a good dmg ,and with low def they will be more easier to kill , increasing HP in mail users dont work so much if they have very low defense

instead of removing ITD's why not give us a buffs that (reduce base dmg for 30-40% and 20-30% more Hp?) and it stay forever.

i posted about this on other thread but since u made this i resay it.

as for my opinion it should stay for us vanquiser... thats why we are here... to deal massive dmge in a single blow.

seems logic , i agree your point , really good

I love the idea of this Sedy, it will require A LOT of work though as I'm sure you are aware. There's a great deal of skills that not only increase damage to ungodly amounts but also reduce damage to nothing not to mention heals for 15k +, then there are pots with % based heals etc etc. I already mentioned in the Myrmidon thread that if you were to make a test server to see how this plays out then we'll all gladly help.

Before you remove the ITDs though, could I make another suggestion? Instead of removing the ITDs from the game, remove % based bonus damage from the skills which have an ITD associated with them and test with a fixed amount of bonus damage as I think this is one of the biggest problems encountered atm and is one of the largest factors in the ungodly damage being dealt.

Another method could perhaps be to lower weapon damage values to reduce overall base damage which should prevent both of the ITD bugs from rearing it's head. I've noticed that once damage gets to around 63k thats when it starts to rear it's head (PvE experience) and so far in PvP I haven't been able to hit for higher than 33k on an ITD yet.

The above 2 suggestions would save a lot of time and work and would more than likely solve both issues encountered so far.

the problem isnt the tank def...the problem is they are powerful now on days

I love the idea of this Sedy, it will require A LOT of work though as I'm sure you are aware. There's a great deal of skills that not only increase damage to ungodly amounts but also reduce damage to nothing not to mention heals for 15k +, then there are pots with % based heals etc etc. I already mentioned in the Myrmidon thread that if you were to make a test server to see how this plays out then we'll all gladly help.

Before you remove the ITDs though, could I make another suggestion? Instead of removing the ITDs from the game, remove % based bonus damage from the skills which have an ITD associated with them and test with a fixed amount of bonus damage as I think this is one of the biggest problems encountered atm and is one of the largest factors in the ungodly damage being dealt.

Another method could perhaps be to lower weapon damage values to reduce overall base damage which should prevent both of the ITD bugs from rearing it's head. I've noticed that once damage gets to around 63k thats when it starts to rear it's head (PvE experience) and so far in PvP I haven't been able to hit for higher than 33k on an ITD yet.

The above 2 suggestions would save a lot of time and work and would more than likely solve both issues encountered so far.

Yeh it would be a lot of work but I think it would probably be worth it. From what people are telling me, things feel pretty broken at the moment when it comes to PvP.

Damage numbers are getting ridiculously high now and it's causing bugs to appear because of the way the game is coded. I guess they never intended for this game to be expanded because you can see it all the time in the code how things are setup.

I would like to go through and remove all the ITD from skills and replace it with increased bonus damage and probably replace all the percent bonus damage too.

I'm not TOO concerned with defenses of players because a lot of jobs have -defense debuffs now and they can always be adjusted, same goes for the buffs that the defense jobs have. And anyway, these jobs SHOULD be hard to kill. I know they have some more damage now with the 3rd jobs, but that would get reduced with the loss of ITD.

is like "oh good im a good dmg dealer and good at having hp and high def , i can kill all of them slower by healing myself "

Oh forgot to add. In my tests, it doesn't always matter how much ITD a skill has, it could be only 10% and another 100% and they both do the same damage lol.

the point is , they survive and they kill good

Removal of ITD would mean that tanks and healers will hardly be killed. Then again, I really dislike the idea of itd where you can just burst damage and 2 shot people. I hope for a more balanced gameplay.

Perhaps considering a direct (not buff please because it will be unfair to certain classes) - all damage absorption buff to replace itd, since it will not be as overpowering as itd and achieve sort of the same effect of course, the damage inflicted will be reduced.

I like the idea of - heal received. Almost all classes have them and it is a great way to counter healer with these skills however, healers can just ailment pot/ debuff those debuff away so maybe you might want to look into this.

Removing nimble tongue card so that healers can no longer achieve instant, to nerf them, but this is a very PvP perspective since they still need their heals in dungeons. Just my thoughts

Side note:
"Removal of ITD would mean that tanks and healers will hardly be killed. Then again, I really dislike the idea of itd where you can just burst damage and 2 shot people. I hope for a more balanced gameplay."
For me that's the main purpose... I don't think healers and tanks should be easily killed, like 2-3 shots, on the same way I don't think healers and tanks should be able to kill people...

Anyways, regarding the removal of ITD, I agree. Even though it doesnt affect me directly as i can heal myself almost enough to cover some of the ITD skills, I agree with its removal because if feels almost illogical. Like, whats the point of having 40k or 70k defense if with 1 single skill i will be as good as naked?

I think the ITD can be removed and replaced with spikes from critical hits, and get the resistance stat actually working, to be able to dodge/resist critical hits...